Upskilling Needs Analysis to Drive Business Outcomes

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Asking better questions is a critical part of any needs analysis. Speaker and Coach Mike Simmons and I guide you through what questions to ask and when to ask them to make your training more impactful. 

 

Show Notes:

There are many simple, yet thought-provoking steps to execute a better needs analysis and ensure improved training outcomes.  Key takeaways include:

• Defining the Problem Clearly: Establishing a precise definition of the problem is crucial. Misunderstandings often arise from varied perspectives. Ensure alignment within the team by asking clarifying questions to validate and agree on the problem's specifics.
• Understanding the Stakeholders: Identify who has the problem, who is impacted by it, and who cares about it. Engaging these stakeholders brings diverse perspectives and resources, which can bridge gaps and garner necessary support and buy-in for solutions.
• Analyzing the Root Causes: Employ root cause analysis by repeatedly asking why the problem persists. This helps in distinguishing between symptoms and root causes, allowing for more effective and focused problem-solving. It also helps determine if a problem is worth solving or if it's unsolvable within current constraints.
• Establishing Clear Timelines: Set defined timelines to create urgency and accountability. Use frameworks like the Eisenhower Matrix and 30-60-90-day plans to break down goals into manageable chunks, ensuring consistent progress and momentum toward the desired outcome.
• Implementing a Structured Approach: Use a systematic framework with steps involving what, who, why, how, and when. This methodical approach ensures comprehensive problem-solving and strategic planning, aligning short-term actions with long-term objectives, and adapting as needed based on regular reflection and assessment.

Learn more about Mike Simmons on his website.

Check out Six Thinking Hats by Edward de Bono
Read about the COM-B Model for Behavior Change

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Transcript:

Susan Cort: [00:00:00] A needs analysis can help L& D professionals identify gaps between current performance and required performance. And by asking the right questions in the right order, your training solution can be more effective.

Mike Simmons: You start to get to a point where, um, it's not about the problem that we're solving for, and it's not about someone working through the solution.

It's more about the order of the questions that are being asked that help us paint a much better picture.

Susan Cort: That's Mike Simmons, a coach and business leader who helps companies ask better questions before they create a training solution. Listen to Mike's advice next on Powered by Learning.

Announcer: Powered by Learning is brought to you by d'Vinci Interactive.

d'Vinci's approach to learning is grounded in 30 years of innovation and expertise. We use proven strategies and leading technology to develop solutions that empower learners to improve quality and boost performance. Learn more at dvinci com. [00:01:00]

Susan Cort: Joining me today is Jenny Fedullo, Learning Experience Director at d'Vinci.

And our guest, Mike Simmons. Mike is a seasoned coach and leader with more than 22 years of experience in high growth tech companies. He helps business leaders find clarity, stop second guessing, and fearlessly take the next logical step. Today, Mike is going to talk about his approach for needs analysis in L& D.

Thanks for joining us, Mike. Hi, Mike. Welcome.

Mike Simmons: Well, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here. And, uh, this is a topic that is near and dear to my heart. So look forward to the conversation. Thank you.

Susan Cort: Well, that's great. Hey, Mike, start out by giving our listeners a little bit of an idea about your background.

Mike Simmons: I, um, started on the, uh, operations side of things, uh, over at UPS. Uh, so your, your typical, how do you get things from one place to another operating inside a system designed for scale. Then moved into the EdTech space because of this passion I have for both helping people do [00:02:00] be the thing they want to be better and faster, do the thing they want to do better and faster.

I joined a company way back in the day called SmartForce, if people remember them, and we were acquired by Skillsoft, the 800 pound gorilla, uh, in, in the space. I guess up until a couple of years ago, and I've been a little bit disconnected from it. It seems like they've kind of, they've gone in a couple of different directions, but went through that for a bit, uh, moved in from customer success roles, what you would call it today, really implementation success on the business side into account executive roles.

And then it was fortunate enough to move into an accounting role. Uh, a sales leadership role with a company called O'Reilly Media, joint venture between Pearson Technology Group and O'Reilly Media and led, uh, the, our America's region for a period of time before starting my own business, which is CatalystX, which is where I've been now for the last about eight years.

Jenny Fedullo: Great. Mike, it's great to talk to you again. I attended your session a few weeks ago at the Learning Guild, uh, Learning and [00:03:00] HR Tech Solutions Conference. Felt like an hour wasn't enough because I love this topic, just diving into needs analysis. Your session really caught my eye because needs analysis, and especially in our industry, focusing on the problem is such a critical first step, and it's so often skipped.

You had talked about crafting the right questions and walked us through a framework. So I'm excited to, to dive into that a little bit more deeply. I know it aligns with, with our approach as well, uh, in, in some instances at d'Vinci. I'm also going to give a little teaser for those of you listening. So don't hang up.

He's gonna, uh, share, uh, talk a little bit about an umbrella and how it relates to, to this topic. So be sure to stick around. So I figured we'd start with the first question, the what. Um, so what is the problem? So anytime you sit down with a client or someone's coming to you for some work, you know, you, you've got to start with the problem.

And it seems like such a simple question to [00:04:00] ask and answer. So oftentimes it's ignored. Why? What are you experiencing? What's the answer? I think one of the, one of the biggest

Mike Simmons: challenges with it. Is a lack of clarity around the specific definition of the thing that we're trying to solve for. So a definition of a problem, a lot of times our perception of the problem is clouded by our experience with it and our view.

The way we describe it might be a little bit different. Think about the story of, uh, the five blind guys describing an elephant. Yeah. One person describes it as this giant wall. Another person describes it as this like trunk, like a tree. And then another person describes it as a snake because they're holding on the trunk of the elephant.

Or, and then someone says, Harry, and they've got a hold of the tail. We just, we lack perspective. We lack context. Because we get so focused on the thing we're working on that we need to pause and ask a couple of other questions like, what does that mean? Or [00:05:00] can you describe that a little bit further? Or even let's take this step, validating our understanding of the definition of the specific problem and then getting alignment from the entire team that that is the specific thing we are trying to do.

So if we can't align on the specific problem we're trying to solve, then what right have we earned to solve it? Mm hmm.

Jenny Fedullo: Mm hmm. It reminded me when you said that, um, did you ever read the book Six Thinking Hats?

Mike Simmons: By

Jenny Fedullo: Edward de Bono. It's called Six Thinking Hats by Edward de Bono. I don't

Mike Simmons: know that I have read that book.

It sounds familiar, but I don't think I've actually read the book. Maybe you've heard it referred to a couple of times, but I'll check it out. Yeah,

Jenny Fedullo: but it was along that lines of what you were saying about the same perspectives is that if, Essentially what it is, it's a tool that, to ensure that we're all aligned, you're all putting on the same color hat.

So if you have a white hat, you're focusing on fact. If you have a red hat, you're focusing on emotion. But yeah, if we're, in the beginning of that [00:06:00] book, they talk about you're all looking at the horizon. Folks are looking at it at a different, you're facing a different way. So you're not aligned and you're not looking at the problem the same way.

It, it came to my mind when you said that, but it is interesting that, yeah, you've got to be all agree on, I'll be looking at it the same way.

Susan Cort: Now you have some summer reading, Mike.

Mike Simmons: Yeah, I definitely do. And as you go through it, you think about what the challenge is there, right? If we're all looking at something slightly different, but we feel like we're, we're, we're, we're, we're.

We're, we're looking at the same thing. We have blind spots. And for any of you who have ever gone to an eye doctor, you know, that they've put that paddle behind your eyes. And at some point in time, you can't see it unless somebody pushes your shoulder or changes your head, changes your perspective. And that's where questions can really help us.

Questions are not something to get people defensive around or get people to Get dug in around their logic. It's more to help shift perspective so that we can overcome blind spots.

Jenny Fedullo: All right. Question two, [00:07:00] I know we focus on the who. So at d'Vinci, we're always delving into and focusing on audience analysis and sometimes we'll go, you know, Develop learner personas in order to get that well rounded view of the learner.

You take it a step further, really. I sat up straight in my seat when you went to go through this, but you really ask who is impacted by the problem and who cares about the problem. Can you elaborate?

Mike Simmons: Yeah. And I, the, to clarify, it's that first one is who has it, which you had talked about then, who, who is impacted by it.

So who, as a result of the person who has the problem, who is not able to get their thing done. Or not able to achieve the results they want or not able to make the progress they need to because that person or that has not been able to solve the problem or has that problem. And then the third one is who cares about both of those people.

So who cares about the person who has the problem and the person and the people or groups of people who are impacted by the problem. And the reason this is so powerful is now you [00:08:00] start to bring in three new perspectives. We're not talking about the specific problem we're trying to solve. We're actually trying to get additional perspective around other aspects of the problem, which we're going to get into in a couple of the other questions.

So we get some other people at the table and we get some other people to come around and have a discussion around it. And even better when you start talking to the people who care about both the people who have the problem. Or impacted by the problem. Now you start to find the people who have money, they have resources available to help solve that challenge.

So this is where you start to figure out as learning and development professionals, uh, as HR professionals, how do we bridge the gap between the work we do and the functional leaders of lines of businesses that we're serving and where can they come and actually. Identify additional resources for us so that we can implement the technology that we're looking to implement, or the solution that we're looking to implement, or the resources that we're looking to implement, because everything has a cost.

Jenny Fedullo: Yeah, it's a [00:09:00] problem we hear so much is that, that buy in, and if you come at it from all those angles, uh, it's definitely going to help L& D professionals with that buy in, absolutely. All right. So next the why. So I know for us at d'Vinci at this point, we're exploring what result, you know, what result will fixing the problem achieve, which aligns with one of the questions you ask here.

Why is the problem important to solve and what else are you trying to understand by focusing on the why?

Mike Simmons: Yeah. So the, the first question I like to start with on the why, this gets into that root cause analysis, like five why's type thing, but why does the problem persist?

Jenny Fedullo: Yep.

Mike Simmons: Why does the problem persist?

Because if we can't, if we don't have a view on why the problem persists, then we're going to have these giant blind spots where we potentially are addressing a symptom rather than the root problem or the root cause or the root thing. Right. So let's go channel your inner two year old and ask [00:10:00] why, and ask why five times and work your way through it.

And you'll get to the root of the challenge. You'll And why this thing persists. And sometimes things persist because they are unsolvable. If they are absolutely unsolvable in the environment that you're in, based on how you're prioritizing things, why continue to waste time, energy, and resource trying to solve it?

So this is where you start to get into this. If we take a different perspective and look at things slightly differently, can we get to a point where we say, maybe this problem isn't worth solving right now or it's not the thing that we need to solve right now. And then we get into that impact question, which is why is it important to solve?

What's the impact of solving it and on the other side, what's the risk of not solving it? What happens if we don't invest time, energy, and resource?

Mike Simmons: Knowing why it persists and why it's important to solve. What happens if we don't solve it? And where this comes into play is when you go back to that person who has the money and [00:11:00] they come up with all the other shiny things that we should be putting time, energy and attention to.

You can actually draw their attention back to the risk associated with not solving the problem and get everybody refocused, get their attention focused. As Jenny's been walking us through it, there's three questions here. Who and why? And there's some nested questions associated with it. Imagine you're looking at the top half of a hexagon.

At the top of the hexagon, you have a what? On the right side, actually, I've got to put my hands up and figure out which one the L is, but on the right side of the hex, on one side of the hexagon, the right side of the hexagon, you have the who? And then on the left side of the hexagon, you have the why? And this is where we get into that piece around Putting a couple of orcs underneath it.

And here's our Mary Poppins approach to solving a problem. How do we, how do we channel our inner Mary Poppins, whether it's Yondu from Guardians of the Galaxy, I'm Mary Poppins, y'all, or it's Mary Poppins from many of our youths. Uh, but let's channel our inner Mary Poppins and, and do the [00:12:00] hard work relative to problem solving.

Susan Cort: Yeah. Mary Poppins was practically perfect, you know, as the song goes. In every way. So this, and this sounds exactly, this sounds like a practically perfect approach too, so.

Jenny Fedullo: Love it. All right. So moving on to the how, so I love how you make this a deliberate step in your framework by really seeking to understand how people are solving the problem today.

And how if they solve it or how they could solve it in the future. So, um, what are you really digging for here?

Mike Simmons:  I'm digging for stakes. So we've got current state and we have desired state. Current state is how we're doing it today. Desired state is this future where everything is much better. And now we've got this gap and if we've got this gap, whether it's a gap from point A to point B or a gap from A to Z, whatever, wherever the gap is, we now have this tension that exists across the group. And we say, look, I can actually envision a future that's better than today. I know what my current state is. I can keep doing [00:13:00] those things over and over again.

And, and if I'm expecting different results, that's what the definition of insanity is. Right? So if I keep doing those things over and over again, and I expect different results, we're not going to get anywhere. But if I actually start to change something, I mind that gap, I start to change things, then I can get to a future that's actually a bit more exciting than where we are today.

And that's where you start to, you get to play this really cool role as a learning and development professional. So as a problem solver, as a solution provider of actually guiding your customer through their hero journey and moving from failure to success.

Jenny Fedullo: So moving off the top part of the hexagon, no, octagon.

Hexagon, you're right. Are we octagon or a hexagon?

Mike Simmons: We are hexagon. It's really simple. This is the most complex shape that I discuss. It's six sides. We added a layer of complexity. I am not ready to go octagon. Um. But sometimes you end up fighting internally with people and have to go into the octagon to work for resources.

We [00:14:00] can get in that in another conversation.

Jenny Fedullo: Right. So the when, for us, you know, we're asking clients, what's your deadline? What's the timeline? When do you need this by? Um, and. And I loved how you took it so much further and, and how you, I think at this point is when you, you know, you talk about the Eisenhower matrix, which is typically a time management tool, right?

So you're using that to really bring clarity and focus to, you know, where do we start or where do we focus on? Um, and I know you talked about 30, 60, 90 as well. So I think that might be all grouped in with the when, so elaborate.  

Mike Simmons: So we get into the when, and the when is more, um, so think about it. If, um, if I set a goal.

And I don't set a timeline for the goal. What am I really doing? Like, where's the urgency? Where's the thing? Where's the thing that I'm going to use to hold myself accountable? Hey, I want to make more money, or I want to lose weight, or I want to save resources, or I want to grow the business, whatever those things are.[00:15:00]

If you continue to Not have a timeline that you're operating in. Those things just get pushed out further and further and further. And we have this tendency to move toward things that are a little bit easier or go through the path of the least resistance. By identifying a when, specifically when you're talking with that executive level, by identifying a when, then you can reveal Urgency.

You can reveal risk if someone is not able to solve something by a given point in time. And there are a lot of typical wins that exist inside organizations. Big wins are end of fiscal year or beginning of the next, beginning of the next fiscal year. Um, another one are quarters. Some people have quarterly management based objectives.

Uh, some organizations will have monthly objectives. Well, as you go in, you start to say, okay, well when do we need to solve this thing? By, it's the timeline. Then we get to a point where we can do something really cool. We get to work backward from that timeline and identify what happens short term, medium term, long term next [00:16:00] logical steps.

So we can take it middle steps so that we know that we're getting to those stepping stones as we're moving along the path and then longer term. Where we're actually going and we can assess ourselves against those short term, medium term and long term things to determine, are we making progress in the right direction?

And even better, if we know that our implementation timeline is going to be 90 days and we need to have this implemented by the 2nd of January, because everybody's going to come back from holiday or vacation and I've got a board meeting and I've got to convey that we've done something. Then in order to achieve that, we have to make a decision sometime in September.

So that we can start moving forward in October, hit that 30 day timeline, November and December. So it's not as much about, I can keep kicking this down the road. It's, I have a defined timeline for when I need to accomplish something by. I understand what the stakes are. I understand what the risk is. And then when people start to take me off track, I can bring things back and say, [00:17:00] remember when you said this was important?

Well, what's changed? They'll give you some super simple ones. Mm-Hmm? . How many people out there wanted to lose weight for their wedding day? Like the wedding day? Probably everybody, right? Everybody wasn't, we're not gonna move the wedding day out. Or how many people would like to make sure they have the stuff that they need in their house when their first child's born?

How many people? Mm-Hmm. . And you can go through all of these things. There's graduation, there's all of these things that happen, right? Well, they happen in life. And the way that we operate, they also happen in business. Like we have requirements that we are expectations we set with boards. And if we don't hit those expectations, we lose jobs.

And if we don't hit those expectations, we have to let people go. So let's understand the timelines and then start working backwards, design backwards, so we can execute forward, which is another cubby thing and get into that building out our short term, medium term and long term plan.

Jenny Fedullo: Yeah, all good points.

I think it goes back to what we talked about with with [00:18:00] buy in, right? So if you have more manageable chunks, you're showing results sooner, you have a more deliberate plan, you're not waiting for the end, you're showing these small wins. I think it's all connected.

Mike Simmons: Yeah, it's and it's and as you build that what ends up happening, what I typically see inside organizations, we start building momentum.

It's like the first time you go to the gym, it's hard. Yeah. Then you're kind of like, you know what? That wasn't that hard. I was able to do it. I actually felt pretty good. I got to listen to a cool podcast like this. I got to get some work done, right? So I'm going to go do it again tomorrow. And I go do it the next day and I go do it the next day.

And all of a sudden my clothes start fitting a little bit better. And I'm like, Oh, you know what? This is actually working. What more can I do? So you start building momentum because we're taking those next logical steps and then starting to move forward rather than thinking about. The end result, we're like, I cannot wait until I get there.

And then all of a sudden you're out of time. And you're like, where did the time go? How did we get here so quickly? And I'm not where I want to be from a goal [00:19:00] objective perspective. So let's break things down into small pieces so that we can take that next step, build resilience, build progress, build momentum, and then start taking the next step and the next step and the next step.

The thing to remember, and the reason why the short term, medium term, and long term piece is so important, is you have to take time to reflect and say, am I making progress toward that midpoint? Because if I'm not making progress toward the midpoint, maybe I'm taking a bunch of small steps in the wrong direction and I'm just going around in a circle.

You'll think about a hike, you go on a hike and you want to get up to the top of the mountain. And there are some times where you actually have to go down the mountain a little bit to get back up to the top of the mountain. You just kind of have to wander around obstacles. It's the same thing. Let's make sure we're evaluating, reflecting, asking questions, looking to see if we're actually making progress against the thing that we're attempting to do, because if we aren't, then we can go back in and pull this team together and say, why, like what's changed?

What's happened? What do differently? What did we [00:20:00] miss? Because sometimes actually, not only sometimes you will miss things, you will make mistakes and it's okay. Everybody makes mistakes. You just got to move forward.

Jenny Fedullo: Indeed. All right. So I know you already spoiled the big surprise a little bit. Um, and with the Mary Poppins moment, but, um, you know, talk to us a little bit more about the, the umbrella and, and the whole model.

It's such a great way to visualize how this, how this all fits together.

Mike Simmons:  So I'm very bad at keeping secrets. Once I get, like, I get so excited and I just start sharing and all of that kind of stuff happens. So I am sorry. As we work at the top of the hexagon, we add in a couple of those arcs, we get our arches and then the handle.

We look at it and this is a reminder to say, if I can't cover the rock of the problem with that umbrella, I have not yet earned the right to get into hell. And now we talked about weddings and kids and all of those things. So I've been married for 26 years now. And, uh, Um, my typical challenge is as soon as I hear a problem, I'm like, well, I'm going to [00:21:00] go jump in there and solve it.

Let's get into how. Start getting into solution mode and it does not serve the right purpose, right? So we have to, if we get ourselves to just pause, take a breath and start asking a couple of questions, we can avoid that move from going right from what into how, which is typically where we as leaders, we as executives, we as really smart people who care about things, right?

Problem solvers tend to go, we want to go right from what into how. The challenge with that is you will find yourself focusing time, energy and attention on the wrong thing. So think Mary Poppins, cover the stone, that big problem, that big rock or a problem with those first couple of questions and then earn the right to move into how and pause just slightly, a little bit more and ask how are they solving today rather than going right into how you're going to solve tomorrow.

Jenny Fedullo: Mm hmm. And I would think. Everyone listening to this podcast right now would say that's one of the largest problems in L& D, in the L& D field is [00:22:00] the leaders or managers or supervisors, they come to the training department and say, you know, with the how, develop this training and don't allow it. The time to explore the, the umbrella, right?

Is it really a problem that training is going to solve? And, um, I, I, that's why the, the top part in that visual is, is so key.

Mike Simmons: Yep. Don't go any further. If you, if you haven't come, why do we do that? Like, why do we go right into training? Why is that? Why do we think everything's a training problem? I'm just going to go train them harder or stronger or whatever the training thing.

Like, why do we, why do we fall into that trap?

Susan Cort: I think people think it's a silver bullet, you know, it's like a silver bullet to solve the problem.

Jenny Fedullo: It is, or they don't want to explore that there could be something wrong that they're impacting, right, that they might have to solve, where we'll just give it to training to solve, right?

Well, we check the box and, you know, that's it. It's, it's maybe accountability. It's maybe,

Mike Simmons: it's interesting. This is where I love this model that comes out of the UK, which is [00:23:00] COM-B Um, and the first C is capability. Is it knowledge or skill? Can they know what to do and can they do it? The second one is the one where we really as leaders have to get into, which is opportunity.

And you know, have we created the right operating environment for people to be successful? Are people to be successful? Are we just adding more to it? And then the third letter is M, motivation. Are they motivated? Do they care? And And I know we went through that like super quick, but look at that model, COM-B and say, and you can look at the research as COM-B and it comes out of a research institute out of the UK.

And it's really informed a lot of the assessment that I'll do when I'm working with teams. It's, is this a capability, knowledge or skill challenge? Is it an opportunity? And typically it is an opportunity. I would say, Oh, I would be careful about saying 90 percent of the time, cause that's going to sound a bit, um, uh, a bit like, like I'm embellishing things, but a lot of times it's 90%.

It's, it is leadership. Yeah. I believe it. So look [00:24:00] at those things. And just because we have a training hammer doesn't mean everybody's walking around with a training nail exactly.

Jenny Fedullo: Yeah. All right. For those who are listening, the instructional designers, the L& D leaders, what's your one piece of advice?

What's the one thing that you, you want them to take from, from listening to

Mike Simmons: ask more questions and actually rather than more questions, ask better questions. And when we talk about better, simplify them, simplify them, who, what, why, how, when. We didn't get into where because where's not necessarily part of this.

I mean, there's always gonna be a where component. And in some instances, as you look at a solution, but what, who, why, how, when, then build out those timelines. If you ask the question and don't just stop there, like be comfortable asking the question. The next question go a little bit deeper. Validate understanding.

Don't assume that when someone is describing something that they're describing the thing that you think it [00:25:00] is. I'll give you a really quick example. If I have a big whiteboard behind my show, behind my back is my background. It's, it's, uh, kind of my thing. I like throwing things up on a whiteboard. The reason I like a whiteboard is because we can put some things up there and then we can erase them.

There are no mistakes. And if we want, we can grab a picture of it as we go through the process. Well, if I say I need to write something in black, somebody could give me a sharpie. Somebody could give me a ballpoint pen and somebody could give me an expo marker as a couple, as a couple of examples. One of those will do damage to the whiteboard.

It would be really hard to get off. One of them won't work on the whiteboard and the other one is actually designed for it. So let's validate our understanding with the purpose of not trying to prove our intelligence and how quickly we are, but really to kind of because we're naturally curious, we're interested in learning more.

And if we learn a little bit more, you will help your team, you will help your organization, you will help the [00:26:00] business, you will help your customers, and you will help yourself get, reduce some of the risk associated with solving for the wrong problem, solving for the problem with the wrong solution, solving for something that's not really important.

So ask, More questions go a little bit deeper, validate understanding, uh, and keep moving forward because you're going to make mistakes and you have no choice but to keep moving forward.

Susan Cort: Great advice. Thanks. Mike, this was really fascinating. I mean, it's, it's so simple in many ways, but yet we don't do this as, as human beings, not only in learning and development positions, but just in life.

And, uh, just great advice to stop and think before moving right into the solution. I'm guessing that. The two of you probably don't see this all the time, uh, in learning and development. Ask, how important is it to do this so that you have that learning really be impactful?

Jenny Fedullo: Yeah, I mean, for, for that buy in that we've been talking about a little bit and, and the, the budgets and if, if, if companies are invest in training, don't they want them to be the [00:27:00] right solution?

Right. Um, and not addressing a problem that doesn't exist, but, but being able to, to put the funds and the budget and the time and the energy towards two problems that training is going to solve.

Mike Simmons: Yeah. Um, yeah, the, I think more people who are asking these questions and kind of leading things through the, the, the, the better we'll get, you start to get to a point where, um, it's not about the problem that we're solving for.

And it's not about someone working through the solution. It's more about the order of the questions that are being asked that help us paint a much better picture. And we get to that point where we can say, is this problem even worth solving or is there something else? And a really good book around this is, uh, I think it's, Keller's book, The One Thing, um, where there's the focusing question, which is what's the one thing that I can do that now that makes the rest of this no longer relevant or meaningless?

Go out there and ask questions, do good things.

Susan Cort: That's good. Mike, this was such great advice. How do you put this into practice when you're consulting with [00:28:00] organizations?

Mike Simmons: Yeah. So it all kind of, it all depends on the, the specific context. Sometimes it's in the context of Speaking, which is where Jenny and I came across each other.

I did our breakout session at an industry event, and it was about sharing this information so that people could put work like this into practice. Too often people talk around in circles at really high level, and they don't get into how can I actually do this and apply this in the work? So there's, that's one.

Another way that I do is I'll go into organizations and I will facilitate leadership discussions where we'll work through the framework and get everybody's information out onto a whiteboard and onto a piece of paper and it will lay out what our next steps are so that we have a plan and can work And then the third way that I'll do it is in there on a project basis and actually help with the problem solving components.

So there's a couple of different ways that I work with organizations. Here's something that keep in mind. Everything is theoretical until you put it into practice. Once you put it into practice, it's practical. You could read [00:29:00] so many things about how so many people have solved some things. It's all theoretical until you go and do the work and get the experience on your own.

So please take all the stuff that we talked about here, these questions that we were working through, and think about any challenge that you're working on and just start working it through the framework. And you'll actually start to see to, um, the point that was made a little bit earlier on. The simple nature of it, because it's sometimes the solution is, is actually much more simple than we want it to be.

And it's hard to come to grips with that. So thank you.

Susan Cort: We thank you and we will stop making things so difficult. And I know our listeners will too, just by asking some more questions. Mike Simmons, thanks for joining us.

Jenny Fedullo: Thanks, Mike. It was really great to talk to you again.

Mike Simmons: Jenny,

Susan Cort: that was a great conversation with Mike. He really makes you think about the importance of asking questions before solving the problem, something we always don't do.

Jenny Fedullo: Agreed. I mean, it, it, asking the right questions is so powerful. The, [00:30:00] the, the what, the who, the why, the when, the how, and this structured approach really helps.

You know, understand the core issue. So it's not just about finding the right solutions, but ensuring that solving what we're solving, the right problems and aligning our efforts with our goals. So for all of you listening, you know, I challenge you take, take this process, use the questions, um, and, and remember the, the right questions, asking the right questions is going to lead to the right solutions and asking them in the right order.

Susan Cort: I love that.

Jenny Fedullo: Yes. And, and think about his umbrella analogy and Mary Poppins, right? Oh,

Susan Cort: Thanks, Jenny. And special thanks to our guest, Mike Simmons. If you have a suggestion for a guest or a topic, please contact us at poweredbylearning@dvinci.com. And don't forget, you can subscribe to Powered by Learning wherever you listen to your podcasts.