Innovating Member Learning and Industry Development

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Professional associations provide specialized learning solutions across their member organizations presenting a variety of opportunities and challenges. Cathy Butler, the EVP of Talent, Equity, and Learning Solutions at the 4A's (American Association of Advertising Agencies), explains how the association adds value to its members through comprehensive and innovative training programs. 

Show Notes:

4A’s Cathy Butler shares the importance of fostering a learning culture that goes beyond traditional training and development. She offers many key points in her interview. 

• Build a Holistic Learning Culture: Deliver learning offerings that provide professional development to individuals while advancing member organizations.
• Establish Comprehensive Training Programs: The 4A's offers a wide range of training programs, from early career development and new manager training to certification programs in specialized areas like media and Generative AI. These programs are designed to meet the varied needs of their members and adapt to industry changes.
• Generative AI Certification: The 4A's has introduced a certification program for Generative AI, reflecting the growing demand for skills in this area. The program includes self-paced learning,live instruction, and networking with a peer cohort providing a comprehensive learning experience that caters to different learning styles.
• Create Innovative Business Models: To address underutilization of training programs, the 4A's is piloting a subscription model that offers unlimited access to a selection of training programs. This model aims to provide flexibility and encourage more frequent use of training resources by members.
• Integrate Talent, Equity, and Learning: Cathy Butler's role at the 4A's integrates talent development, equity, and learning . This approach emphasizes creating inclusive environments that address the career development needs of diverse groups, fostering a more equitable industry.

Learn more about the 4A's 

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TRANSCRIPT:

Susan Cort: [00:00:00] Professional trade associations can be an extension of your training team and be committed to empowering your learners’ success. 

Cathy Butler: So to me it's a really exciting time to think about learning cultures in organizations and to think about learning as not just training and development as we talked about here, but learning about individuals and their culture and what they're bringing to the table so that we're going to foster different conversations in organizations.In a way that invites vulnerability, but also champions diversity at the end of the day. 

Susan Cort: That's our guest, Cathy Butler, EVP, Talent, Equity, and Learning Solutions with the Trade Association, 4A's, the American Association of Advertising Agencies. Cathy joins d'Vinci CEO, Luke Kempski and me to share how the 4A's adds value to its members through a variety of comprehensive training programs.

Susan Cort: Next on Powered [00:01:00] by Learning. 

Announcer: Powered by Learning is brought to you by d’Vinci Interactive. d’Vinci's approach to learning is grounded in 30 years of innovation and expertise. We use proven strategies and leading technology to develop solutions that power learners to improve quality and boost performance. Learn more at dvinci.com. 

Susan Cort: Today we're going to look at leading learning in a member focused professional association. d'Vinci's CEO, Luke Kempski, joins me and our guest, Cathy Butler, EVP Talent Equity and Learning Solutions with the 4 A's. For more than 100 years, the 4 A's has worked to promote, advance, and defend the interests of member agencies, employees, and the advertising and marketing industries overall.

Susan Cort: The organization serves more than 600 member agencies across 1, 200 offices, which help direct more than 85 percent of total U. S. advertising spend. Welcome, Cathy. 

Luke Kempski: Yes, welcome to the podcast. 

Susan Cort: We're [00:02:00] really looking forward to talking with you today. To get us started, can you tell us a little bit about your background as it led to your current position at the 4As?

Cathy Butler: Yeah, absolutely. So I've spent about 25 years in the advertising industry, sort of working my way up from early days to most recently, I was the CEO of Barbarian and then the CEO of Organic as part of Omnicom. Last year, I realized that I wanted to spend more time on people development, which has always been my passion as a leader.

Cathy Butler: And got my certification in coaching. And so being a certified coach has been a wonderful experience really digging into individuals and supporting their individual learning and development needs, which then transformed into a startup that focused on improving the outcomes for Asian and Pacific Islanders through coaching and courage development to move more of us into leadership roles.

Cathy Butler: But when [00:03:00] the role at the 4A has crossed my path, I really couldn't resist the opportunity to work with such a hallmark organization and to be able to work alongside an industry that I'm absolutely passionate about, and to focus on training and people development at the core of my day. 

Luke Kempski: That's great.Yeah, great that you had that passion for people development and moved into, to this new profession inside the four A's it's pretty exciting. Uh, when you think about the four A's and kind of the, um, makeup of the membership and the employees of the, of your members, talk a bit, a little bit about the types of the main types of training and learning opportunities that you offer and that are kind of high in demand right now.

Cathy Butler: Yeah, absolutely. There's no other organization like the 4A's that's so invested in the success of our agency membership and the individuals within it. From a training perspective, we offer training from sort of early on in your career, new manager. To onboarding into the advertising industry all the [00:04:00] way to certification programs, whether you're looking to build more experience, uh, in media, for example, or, uh, within our newest program, which is generative AI, that's also a certification program.

Cathy Butler: So the range really varies in terms of what you're looking for and from an agency perspective, what's your strategy this year for training, and we love to work with our members to Help them think strategically about how best to support the wide range of employee needs. 

Luke Kempski: And I know that there's a lot of disruption with, you know, things like generative AI and all the changes in the media landscape that must really be impacting your members and their, you know, the employees and the professionals who work inside your members.

Luke Kempski: Can you talk a little bit about kind of how that's really fostered demand and, and like what the people who are taking your training are really looking for? 

Cathy Butler: Yeah, absolutely. You know, something like AI is not just from, um, an [00:05:00] individual skills perspective, there's so much impact on process, on staffing, on tool usage, on legal, on how do we work with our clients, meaning kind of the agency clients and thinking about using innovating with AI, that yeah.

Cathy Butler: We talk about AI as more of a horizontal effort within the forays across all of our different practice areas, including training and development, which is my practice area. So, when it came the opportunity to think about offering a certification program, we really thought about generative AI as the most sort of hands on way that we can offer training from an individual perspective.

Cathy Butler: And foundationally so. So we have a number of members who are taking the program with us to, um, test, if you will, kind of how they can think about, uh, generative AI within their organization with a plan to integrate more folks into our programs [00:06:00] through the rest of this year. And because it is a hands-on program, we have different types of learning.

Cathy Butler: We have self-paced learning, that's a little bit like pre-assigned homework, if you will. And then we have live teaching with our instructor, so that you get a mix of both, train at your own pace, but also learning with a group, because so much of learning is also understanding and hearing from what others are learning in that program as well.

Cathy Butler: At the end of it, I think the value is the certification program from the four A's that is crucial as we think about building a foundation and a common understanding amongst folks who are interested in this space. 

Luke Kempski: Oh, that's great. Yeah. And talk a little bit about how you decided on the mixed modalities.

Luke Kempski: And the idea of having a cohort-based approach with self-paced and some live interaction and are you working within like a defined time period to complete, you know, from beginning to end and with the cohort progressing together? 

Cathy Butler: Yeah, [00:07:00] it's a terrific question and I think that's where the talent of the Learning Institute team comes into play.

Cathy Butler: We're always listening to our members. We're always looking for feedback after our programs, whether it's self-paced, whether it's live action. We have a mix of both, both independently and different types of topics. And we're looking for what is working for our, um, students, if you will, to better understand how to create programs, not just the generative AI one, but across the board in ways that's going to tap into different types of learning that, um, our end constituents are looking for can be most successful in.

Cathy Butler: And for a complex, um, subject like generative AI, it made sense that we were going to create, uh, different modalities, as you call them, so that people can, can learn in their own pace for a complicated subject. And so, uh, We've just kicked off most recently, a couple of weeks ago, uh, with orientation, [00:08:00] there's some self-paced programming, live action teaching is coming, and it's a relatively short paced program, short but high paced program with the first cohort we're looking to get feedback from.

Cathy Butler: We have a number of cohorts planned for the rest of this year, but I think that's really the value of the 4As, that we're always listening to continuously improve. As we get those learnings, we're not only incorporating them into the current program, we're thinking about all of the programs that we have.

Cathy Butler: So, for example, in my new role, I sit across both the 4A's and the 4A's Foundation, and my ambition is to integrate inclusivity and equity into everything that we are doing. All the way from thinking about, well, how do we integrate different levels of inclusivity into our managerial essentials program?

Cathy Butler: As an example, do we need to revisit any of our particular sessions there? That's an ongoing discussion, and that just speaks to [00:09:00] the innovation, I think, at the 4A's and our ambition to Be leading, uh, everything from the conversations on AI, as mentioned, to the newest technology, to even just the training and learning programs that we're developing.

Luke Kempski: That's great. And I also understand kind of your innovation is also applying to some of how you're looking at your business model for how you offer the training to your members and to their employees. Can you talk a little bit about how that's evolving? 

Cathy Butler: Yeah, absolutely. One thing that we have noticed that we've heard that we've been in discussion with our members is underutilization of our training programs.

Cathy Butler: We understand in the advertising industry, everyone's quite busy, certainly being focused on clients, but investing in the talent is a key way to drive longevity in any role. And so, as we were thinking about how to solve this business problem around underutilization, our team thought and heard and sort of [00:10:00] drove some mini focus groups with our members to better understand, well, how can we provide our training and learning in a way that works better for you?

Cathy Butler: One option that came up was really a subscription model, so unlimited seats to our, a certain selection of our programs, um, and to provide that for an open basis to the folks that are part of our subscription program. And what we're hoping to learn is that with sort of more flexibility that our members are going to be taking advantage of more of the training that we have so that we can then determine if this is a model to, um, continue developing and expanding across a bigger membership base.

Luke Kempski: Yeah, I think that that's a great approach because, you know, from your members standpoint. And their employees, it's not like they have to fill out a requisition for every course that they take. You know, once that kind of foundation in the subscription is established, it's [00:11:00] more just a matter of connecting it with people's goals and putting them on a path to taking the training.

Cathy Butler: Absolutely. I think as folks who are passionate about people development, we want to meet the needs of where our people are. And so one individual might be newly promoted into a manager role or. Somebody might need to, um, sort of amp up their skills in media, for example. And we don't want to wait for a significant amount of time to go by.

Cathy Butler: We want to be able to offer it when it, our individuals need it. And so those components, those individual needs are things that we're thinking about at the forays to make sure that our programs are flexible to the needs, uh, across all of our membership. 

Luke Kempski: That's excellent. And I know you mentioned certification, uh, related to AI.

Luke Kempski: Do you have kind of a plan for how you're going to use? Certifications across your curriculum that you're offering. 

Cathy Butler: Yeah, we have a number of different certifications now that, um, implies certain curriculum that is [00:12:00] passed, including assessments at the end. For us, the value is the consistency. And so when you meet somebody else with X certification, you know, that they've undergone, uh, you know, the same training as you, and I think from a manager perspective, that's incredibly valuable.

Cathy Butler: We are always brainstorming additional certifications. I'm going to hold off on sharing some of the ones that we're brainstorming on now, but what we're trying to do is be responsive and also lead the industry in terms of how we're thinking about particular roles. As they are integrated into the business and the evolution and innovation in constantly the advertising industry and how we can make sure that the folks in the industry are better supported with training that we can offer.

Luke Kempski: Talk a little bit about The technology that you're relying on to help deliver and measure and to administer the learning programs that you're offering, both what you have in [00:13:00] place now and maybe what you're considering. And you, you don't have to always use the brand names that just use them how you, how you're comfortable using them.

Cathy Butler: Yeah, I think the training platforms really depends on the modality that we are using, whether it's self-paced or live action. We, um, are also testing using AI in terms of training as well, again, to the point of using innovation in a way that is going to drive interest and effectiveness. So, um, I'm not going to, I'm not at a place where I think I can talk about some of the things that we're testing.

Cathy Butler: I think the platforms that we're using are working for us now, um, and we're going to continue to monitor that. In terms of surveys, we survey for feedback satisfaction, um, at the end of the majority of our programs, and we use a good old survey platform to do that. So, we do use a number of different technologies to serve their purpose.

Cathy Butler: If there [00:14:00] was one or two platforms that I think that we could consolidate to, we would definitely be open to that discussion as well. 

Luke Kempski: We certainly all eventually end up there in some way, shape, or form, um, or always keep ending up there because they keep changing and we keep trying to adapt to different models for delivery.

Luke Kempski: That also makes any kind of analytics and tracking of data more challenging. Uh, you mentioned surveys. Are there anything, other things that you're doing, especially kind of related to the certifications or the new business model? Any, anything that you can talk about from a data analytics standpoint? 

Cathy Butler: I don't think anything that is out of the ordinary or extraordinary at the moment.

Cathy Butler: This is probably also a moment where I will say being a four-month-old, nearly four month old employee, probably the data and technology side is where I spent the least time, to be honest, because I've been so focused on program, curriculum, the student experience, and more of our strategic partnerships and where we can be really [00:15:00] solid Learning and Development Consultants with our member. So if we have a conversation again in six months, I might have a different answer. Um, but I think simply put at this point, I think we're okay. 

Luke Kempski: Yeah, now that that makes sense. And it's also a very common answer that we get from our guests when it comes to trying to figure out tracking data and analytics and the value of that.

Luke Kempski: And I think a lot of that is because of how fast. Both the platforms and the demand for different types of learning are evolving, and it's just, it's hard to get, take the time to put all those measurements in place. 

Cathy Butler: I think also the value of being in training and development is that we have the opportunity to be kind of face to face with, uh, students and also our members, and that has been a really valuable experience, certainly as part of my onboarding to the organization, just hearing What's working, what matters, where they would like to see more training.

Cathy Butler: And so for me, [00:16:00] that has been um, sort of outnumbered, if you will, the more on the technology side from a learning, my own learning perspective. 

Susan Cort: Cathy, you're doing so much right at the 4A's regarding training. What advice would you give to listeners who are in similar positions to yours who are doing training for other associations to make that learning experience even better than it is right now?

Cathy Butler: I would say to prioritize at the core of the day the individual learning experience and sort of what we talked about early on is, is the modalities and everybody is going to learn so differently, um, and to be able to provide multiplicity, if you will, in terms of what their experience could be. I just think about, you know, a very significant, um, population who is neurodiverse.

Cathy Butler: They learn very differently. Is there a way that we can find that? Individuality and commonality in the training programs that you are developing, so that no [00:17:00] matter kind of how you are coming to the table, so to speak, from a learning perspective, that you feel seen and heard, and that what you need to get out of the experience is there for you.

Luke Kempski: I like how that transitions into, um, you know, how you and the four A's are looking at integrating talent, equity, and learning. And it's, you know, embedded into your position. Can you provide some kind of additional context around how that guides the way you and your team are looking at not only the training development, but the impact on the industry and your members specifically?

Cathy Butler: Yeah, absolutely. And I really love this question and appreciate the recognition around talent equity and learning solutions as, as part of my world. I feel like it's a significant responsibility to think across the board here, but I'm incredibly passionate and have been incredibly passionate around career development and coaching as meeting the needs of individuals to help them as individuals accelerate in their careers.

Cathy Butler: And so [00:18:00] we're thinking about implementing a coaching beta within the 4As towards our membership. Hopefully you'll be seeing some news about that later on this year, but it's a, it's a commonality across the 4As and the 4As Foundation. So, if you think about our multicultural advertising internship program that is in its 51st year, As well as our Vanguard program, which is aimed at Black professionals, um, and we just completed a beta with, uh, Latinx professionals.

Cathy Butler: We're going to continue to expand that. What is core across the board is recognizing sort of the, the different, uh, career developments that is needed, but it's also bolstered by community, understanding sort of your culture and your individuality, coaching, and also the need for sponsorship. So. Believing thoroughly that careers are made up of different components of, dare I say, participation from those around you, whether it's a mentor, whether it's a [00:19:00] sponsor, whether it's a coach, and to be really intentional about the career choices.

Cathy Butler: That's how we're thinking about it. And so when I think about the mission of my team, it is to enable inclusive environments where individuals are going to thrive. And that Invites individuals to be participants in declaring what it is that they need from a training perspective, as well as looking at organizations to provide the environments and the training to those individuals as well.

Cathy Butler: So to me, it's a really exciting time to think about learning cultures in organizations and to think about learning as not just training and development, as we've talked about here. But learning about individuals and their culture and what they're bringing to the table so that we're going to foster different conversations in organizations in a way that invites vulnerability but also champions diversity at, at the end of the day.

Cathy Butler: So to me, [00:20:00] that is the really exciting part and a big reason of why I took on this opportunity. 

Luke Kempski: Yeah, and Cathy, I think that, uh, when Susan asked about what advice you have for other learning leaders and professional organizations, that, that hits the nail on the head in terms of we, we don't hear that a lot from different, uh, learning leaders, and I think that a lot of industries are challenged by Kathy.

Luke Kempski: Taking, uh, the professionals that belong to them to that next level when it comes to the whole diversity and equity and changing kind of the career development and talent development to help, uh, get to not only organization goals, but industry goals. So, so let's jump ahead three years. It's, uh, imagine it's 2027 and you're looking back and.

Luke Kempski: What do you think has changed at how the 4A's provides learning value to its members and, and how is that impacting the advertising agency industry? 

Cathy Butler: This is such a big question and I'm a little intimidated by this question to be a little bit of a, I guess, a fortune teller. But if I think about [00:21:00] my personal values for joining this great organization and my responsibilities in my practice area.

Cathy Butler: I would love to see continued evolution of learning cultures, as I just talked about, to the extent that, you know, there are, there's more diversity in our industry, it's recognized, and it's hard work, and there needs to be continued innovation there. So, um, if learning and training and learning cultures could be at the heart of moving that forward, I think I will feel incredibly proud of all of our member agencies as well as the industry.

Cathy Butler: What I would not like to see is some of the same challenges that we're still, we're seeing now, where the media is portraying the hard work of diversity and training and development and employee experience, for that matter, as binary, sort of you're doing it well or you're not doing it, when in fact, [00:22:00] every organization is going to have a different maturity model, some things are going to adopt faster than others.

Cathy Butler: But the continued creativity and continued innovation, I think, applies to an industry that is so driven by creativity. And I think that if we apply the same creativity that we did to all of our client work as to our employee experience, I think we'd be so excited to wake up every day and think about our employee experience in a different way.

Cathy Butler: So, while not a complete prediction, um, I think the ambition is there, and I think every organization is going to experience it differently, but The same energy applies. 

Luke Kempski: Yeah, I totally agree, Cathy. And I certainly hear a lot more CEOs of independent agencies talking more and more about learning and culture development.

Luke Kempski: And, you know, knowing that because there's so much disruption in the industry and we have so many goals that we want to [00:23:00] accomplish, that we really need kind of a strategic approach to learning and culture and employee development if we're going to really achieve our goals on a long term basis. Yeah, So, thank you so much for joining us today.

Susan Cort: Yeah, Cathy, I do want to add that as somebody who's participated in some of the 4A's training through d'Vinci and through our parent company, JPL, it is so well done. It's relatable. It's relevant. It's just so worthwhile and it has really added to my experience as an employee. At our agencies. And in fact, going through the Workplace Enlightenment certification with my team members was just really one of the highlights looking back on all the trainings that I've done in my time here.

Susan Cort: So kudos to you and your team and keep up the good work. 

Cathy Butler: Thank you for sharing that. Thank you for having me. It's been a wonderful conversation. 

Susan Cort: We'll have you back in three years to look at this prediction, Cathy. 

Cathy Butler: I would love that, I think. 

Susan Cort: Take care. Thank you. Thank you.

Susan Cort: Luke, that [00:24:00] was a great conversation with Cathy and certainly some unique and complex challenges that associations have when it comes to training their audiences. 

Luke Kempski: That's true. At d'Vinci, you know, we've worked with a lot of learning leaders and different types of professional associations over the years, and it's tough for them.

Luke Kempski: You know, they're trying to develop and deliver relevant content and learning experiences across hundreds of different employers who are members of their organization, and then they have to decide on how to charge for their training. They can't just do that with membership fees. They might have to have nonmember charges and member fees and figure all of that out.

Luke Kempski: They have to figure out the technology for delivery and make sure that's compatible and integrates with other technologies that their members use. So it was really, uh, fun talking to Kathy and learning about how they're figuring all that out for 4As and also trying different kinds of approaches like piloting a subscription model, developing different kinds of certification programs.

Luke Kempski: Looking at a cohort-based approach to certain courses, which is kind of a [00:25:00] blend of modalities. And then, you know, you have Cathy's focus on people development and equity. And you see, you really see learning evolving at the 4As as not only a method to support the culture evolution in their member agencies, but also to support the industry evolving as well.

Luke Kempski: So, it seems like they're right on track at the 4As and maybe we could mark January 2027. Learn more And have Kathy back and, uh, see what changed and evolved over those years. What do you think, Susan? 

Susan Cort: I think that's a great idea. I can't wait to see what she's going to do with her team at the 4As. Well, thanks, Luke.

Susan Cort: And special thanks to our guest, Cathy Butler. If you have an idea for a topic or guest, please reach out to us at poweredbylearning@dvinci.com. And don't forget that you can subscribe to Powered by Learning wherever you listen to your podcasts.